tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7815675.post1690783794253416368..comments2023-10-17T01:47:22.890-07:00Comments on The Discipler: Unity, Our Polar Star?Michael Hineshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10181066621100395991noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7815675.post-69499876259886327372007-06-04T09:25:00.000-07:002007-06-04T09:25:00.000-07:00I firmly believe in the "priesthood of all believe...I firmly believe in the "priesthood of all believers" and believe that anyone could preach, baptize, or preside at the table. But I also understand that there is a special role within the church given by Christ called Evangelist. (Meaning preacher of the good news.) I agree we should avoid elevating anyone to Lord over others. I agree that using titles for prides sake is wrong. (Jesus said something about call no man father)<BR/><BR/>I agree that preachers are NOT pastors. Elders are. I wish they would just translate the word to Shepherd. All transliterations are confuse people in my opinion (Bishop, pastor, baptism and so on)<BR/><BR/>I have to disagree about being called to ministry. I believe that God gives some people gifts, desires and opportunities which he does not give to others. We all have various gifts and callings. It doesn’t make you better than anyone. Everyone has some calling based upon their own gifts and no gift is better than another except maybe the greatest gift which is LOVE (which we all have)<BR/><BR/>The Holy Spirit works through the Word for salvation and sanctification, no doubt. But he also works in other ways. The Bible shows that so who cares what Campbell taught. He comforts us. He also reads our hearts and intercedes for us. He lives within us. He set apart Paul & Barnabas for ministry (Acts 13:2) He also set men apart to be Elders. (Acts 20:28) So I think the Holy Spirit is very much involved in gifting and setting apart leaders. <BR/><BR/>I believe like you that God gifts his people in various ways. I agree that God gifts some to teach and some to proclaim (gift of prophecy). I also strongly believe that all Christians are called to ministry. But what ministry? I believe some are called to the ministry of preacher, some to be shepherds. Your gifts, your character, and your passions all direct you by the Holy Spirit to where you are called to serve. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, it is not sheer evangelical subjectivism that claims a special call to ministry. It’s Biblical and appropriate to believe some are called to preach, teach or even be elders. Now if they use some supernatural event, or claim God spoke to them, then we know it’s a false call. Our desire for the office, our ability to perform the task, our meeting the qualifications given by the Holy Spirit in Scripture, and our support from others who are willing to follow us show us our calling. <BR/><BR/>The problem with creeds is they always add to the scripture. The Best statements of faith are just quotes of scripture. There has to be some way for believers to state where they stand on major issues. If a creed is merely a list of essential doctrines you must believe, then you use them to because I know you would never allow a person as a member of your church who didn’t jump through certain theological hoops such as believe baptism is for the remission of sins. You seem a bit hypocritical condemning statements of faith when you have a list of essential doctrines in you mind you hold people to as well. You just have not written them down. <BR/><BR/>Most mega churches I know do not have a membership contract. In fact, most mega-churches I know have very few members. They have abandoned the idea of membership all together saying it’s unbiblical. Their goals are not to get “members” but to get people saved. We say “in essentials unity” but what is an essential?<BR/><BR/> <BR/>I am in total agreement on the de-emphasis of the Lord's Supper. The reason the church in the New Testament got together each Sunday was to take the Lord’s supper. The only verse that tells us when they met tells us why they met…. To break bread. We need to be proclaiming the Lord’s Death until He comes. I believe each Sunday should be a celebration that revolves around the gospel message. The Lord’s Supper is that proclamation and celebration. It’s a Love Feast! It should be something that when the visitor attends he falls down and exclaims, “God is really among you.” Most churches large or small are not doing that. <BR/><BR/> <BR/>Like you I believe that Baptism is for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Like Bob Russell, I believe it is part of getting saved. I have heard Bob (who I often do disagree with) speak on baptism a couple times and I have not heard him compromise the truth on baptism at all. I do agree that many have watered down (pardon the pun) teaching on emersion. But I don’t believe Bob Russell is one of those people. I know several mega-churches that teach the truth on this issue. I know many smaller Christian Churches that don’t. You seem to have an overall problem with mega-churches. I think you should stick to issues rather than just condemn mega-churches. It leaves you open to the charge of being petty and jealous rather than really concerned about doctrinal issues as we know you are. Many would ignore several of your very good points because you seem to be out to get larger churches. They’ll ignore you because they’ll say, “oh he’s just jealous.” And we know that is not true. <BR/><BR/> <BR/>The fact is Baptism is just “part of the process of salvation." Belief in the gospel, repentance and confession are just as important. But I would say baptism is an essential part. <BR/> <BR/><BR/>The terms Elder, deacon and preacher have all been restored in name only but the restoration movement as a whole stopped restoring somewhere in the late 1800s. We never truly restored Biblical Church leadership in anything more than name. The restoration is not done. There are many issues in the Christian Church that need restored that never were. <BR/><BR/>Christian Churches foolishly followed the same path as the Romans, Germans, English and Scottish by reinventing their church leadership after the form of government they had. Just as the Romans formed church leadership after the empirical model of the Roman Empire, we turned the preacher into the president, the elders into the senate and the deacons into the house of representatives. What was the result???? Only politics ensued. It held our churches back and still does. Many have seen the impractical nature of that model and have switched over to a new but just as unbiblical corporate model. Both are unhealthy and wrong. We must return to the New Testament model. <BR/><BR/>Preaches who set the church in Order<BR/>Elders who shepherd and oversee the people not programs. <BR/>Deacons who are over the service ministries of the church<BR/>And all members who minister according to their gifts. <BR/><BR/>• When we talk about shepherds not CEO’s we can be called restorationists.<BR/>• When we talk about servant leadership not management we can be called restorationists.<BR/>• When we talk about preachers not pastors we can be called restorationists.<BR/>• When we have elders who visit homes and shepherd souls rather than are dictators from board rooms we can talk about being called restorationists.<BR/>• When we have Preachers appointing elders, rebuking sinning elders, seeing that full time elders get paid and being ordained by elders themselves we can talk about being called restorationists. <BR/>• When we understand the books of 1& 2 Timothy and Titus were written to preachers not elders and give the job description of a Preacher we can talk about being called restorationists.<BR/>• When no elders are lording it over the flock we can talk about being called restorationists.<BR/>• When we don’t believe that elders should be making 95 percent of the decisions in the church we can talk about being restorationists.<BR/>• When we realize that the first elders (the twelve) refused to make decisions about how to feed the widows but delegated that authority for deacons to figure out so they could focus on the ministry of the Word and prayer; and when we imitate that we can be called restorationists. <BR/><BR/>The reason Christian churches no longer speak of "doing Bible things in Bible ways," or "using Bible terms to describe Bible things” is because we hypocritically hold on to our own ideas about church leadership that hold us back from obeying the truth and are merely the teachings of men. The Christian Church traditionally did not use the “language of Ashdod" but it did follow its practices only with the correct Biblical name. <BR/><BR/>You said, “Campbell had no vision of all the denominations melting into one super church.” Who cares? Campbell was a great man but only a man. He was wrong on some points but where he was right was when he said he was not the authority but the New Testament was. So let’s stop quoting Campbell and start following the Bible. Our only guide should be the Bible. <BR/><BR/>Too often Biblical authority is today sacrificed for evangelical acceptance. But it is also sacrificed to obey “Christian Church and Church of Christ” traditions and views that are no more biblical than evangelical ideas. In fact, most of the Christian Churches bad ideas are leftovers from denominationalism or the equally unbiblical over reactions by Campbell and others to denominationalism. (Example: Campbell ran so far from the denominational exaltation of clergy that he ignored the Biblical office of preacher). Human tradition trumps the Bible in our churches very often and, quite frankly, that is a shame!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7815675.post-21931066677459205512007-03-29T11:36:00.000-07:002007-03-29T11:36:00.000-07:00This is spot on. I have been noticing some of the ...This is spot on. I have been noticing some of the same things with some of our mega-churches, or for instance I see some of what you write about when I attend our annual Eastern Christian Convention. But I certainly could not articulate it as well as you have here. Thank you, gives me some food for thought, and some good points to debate at the next mens meeting. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7815675.post-54834897268293077862007-03-14T13:04:00.000-07:002007-03-14T13:04:00.000-07:00I can not agree more with what you have said in th...I can not agree more with what you have said in this article.<BR/><BR/>Ephes. 4:3-6 (ESV) <BR/> eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I am an Evangelist. Preachers do not have different calls than other Christians do, a different gift is all. (In fact further down in this passage, Paul says he gave Evangelists, Elders, and teachers as gifts to the church- and that he wants them to unify his people- we can't do that until we just agree to agree on the Bible) Just as there is one church there is one calling. In a sense all Christian have received a supernatural call by the Holy Spirit working with the word. Alexander Campbell didn't say that, the apostle Paul said it.<BR/><BR/>I am sad to say that a Christian Camp that I have worked with for 15 years has chosen to use denominational language in amending their bylaws in an effort to keep instrumental church members from joining the corporation of the camp. This type of stuff does not allow us to sink into fellowship with the body of Christ at large. I am very troubled and saddened by what I am seeing. I for one, will not longer participate in such organizations that do not acknowledge the oneness of the church of Christ.<BR/>There is also one baptism for the remission of sins. Our only creed should be Christ. I am no "Campbellite" but this is just plain Bible. Good article.Will Spinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03209372176346369530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7815675.post-82553580143534711022007-03-02T16:58:00.000-07:002007-03-02T16:58:00.000-07:00Well written, my friend and brother, I needed to b...Well written, my friend and brother, I needed to be reminded of these matters. But, what can we do? Keep on speaking the truth in love. I am convinced, however, the restoration is not confined to one movement. I believe that truly Spirit-led and Spirit- inhabited people will always tend to be restorationists, seeking the truth of God's Word without looking through their creedal glasses. It is rare, but as you know from church history, several "restoration" movements seemed to spontaneously spring forth. I am an optimist in this regard.<BR/><BR/>Hawkeye GoldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com